example of mr.Salk's decision not to patent his polio vaccine. He could have been by forbes estimate 7bil $ richer if he did indeed patented it. He did not. "Prize" you mentioned, used to be achievement, moral satisfaction, being a national hero. Not making zillions before other company does ;/
Gilead as a company (and not only Gilead) has a history if shady practices when it comes to selling their products and marketing em. Usually they aquire smaller pharma co. that has a potential new drug, then they develop it further and market it (overpriced or pushing it as essential) or license it. Do not forger Tamiflu case. Donald Rumsfeld (joined Gilead as a director in 1988 Chairman 19972001) was in Gilead when Tamiflu was licensed to Roche (would be too obvious if Gilead sold it to gov). There was a huge stockpiling in USA of Tamiflu (billions $). Guess who was in administration at that time? Not to mention questionable effectivnes of Tamiflu.
check the comment, sounds like it's Mr.Clark or some other Pharmasset staff that Schinazi striped of everything...
I do not dismiss hard work of research teams in private pharma companies, i just hate the profit game they are pushed into by the rotten system we have let em get into. I have all the possible respect for people in "white coats" and on other hand i have real anger towards people in "biz suits" managing em. I feel sorry that we now have the meds competition game as our only chance for getting price down (oh well, and chinese/india knocoffs i guess).
good luck to your neice :) hope some big co doesn't spoils her good intentions!
enough of me hijacking Malcolm's golf thread with social rants ;)
peace
Zlikster said
Nov 11, 2013
I feel bad for inventor/chemist of Sofosbuvir and all other hard working people in labs getting ripped from their greedy employers. I feel bad for hepatologists/doctors who can't treat their patinets (or even worse, watch em slowly die) cause of the money game involved.
SoC Interferon+Riba,3-4 years ago, was not covered by national health insurance over here. I know 2 cases where people had to get into huge bank loans just so they can afford to be treated (one cirrothic lady, mom of my friend). I have inside information, that my tx costed em (insurance) round 15k $ only, since they were getting Riba for free/subsidised from Roche. I was paying for each blood test, 3 PCRs, all Neupogen shots, FibroSure, etc during and pre tx, round 3k$, so it was not that bad for me financially. Roche is lately getting pretty agressive with advertising in Bosnia, so i presume SoC Peg+Riba will be even cheaper for insurance to cover it over here. I am only F1/A1 so i do not complain much, but if i were with late liver stage and getting to the point of liver transplatation, i would have to get a bank loan (which i can't get since i am selfemployed) or i would beg (like desperate people do) via media for some money/charity...or rob some lab ;)
@Malcolm, i would let my hepa win anytime in any game! :)
@Bill, since insurance/pharmacology is in this dirty money marekt biz, only hope is competition will do it's thing. I think in next 10 years, Merck, Abbvie, Gilead, BMS, etc will all have it's own DAA combo that will be 100% effective and that it will bring price down. And i bet in next 15years we will have a vaccine too. HCV will be just a distant memory :) It's just sad that there are no more people like there were in the past (eg. Dr.Jonas Salk), who did not patent vaccines/meds and only worked with genuine human impulse to help others and erradicate viral diseases.
sorry about my rant over here, should vented myslef in the Rants thread :)
Loopy Lisa said
Nov 11, 2013
It is the stock holders that want their pennies worth mainly. Nothing is for nothing.
My neice starts university studying bio chemistry this year. It is with every good intention that people go into the indusrty. It is true that millions are needed for future research and to drive sales to hospitals, competition is stiff with so many after the same prize.
Prices will be reduced when competiton arrives enmass, so be assured soon Pegasus and ribaviren will be cheap. The same will happen faster with the DDAs because so many companies are coming out with new meds at the same time.
Without these companies we would all have a terrible fate eventually, so you have to love them because without them we would have no hope.
Just a thought.... ;)
-- Edited by Loopy Lisa on Monday 11th of November 2013 04:30:12 PM
-- Edited by Loopy Lisa on Monday 11th of November 2013 11:45:04 PM
-- Edited by Loopy Lisa on Monday 11th of November 2013 11:45:30 PM
JIme said
Nov 10, 2013
With all due respect Bill, the insurance companies are interested in one thing and one thing only. Money. My insurance company refused to pay for Incivek because they said it was too expensive. I'm serious. That's what they told me. And after going through Hurricane Sandy here in NJ and seeing how the insurance industry is treating people who had insurance, including my own mother, I know that they are almost as low as lawyers when it comes to the dregs of humanity. They only care about one thing. I do feel bad for most people who will probably not be eligible for these amazing new tx. You would probably be better off having nothing and getting the drugs for free than trying to go through your insurance. Sad but true.
Bills said
Nov 10, 2013
LOL
Malcolm
I like the competitive attitude they'll just have to get over it.
I do need to to just clean up what I said here in anger. For me it doesn't appear to be a problem with insurance. and I should or will have to pay the difference. any of us would. My anger is directed at the the drug companies on behalf of people who may not get " The cure " SVR because of Money. I know too many people who will have trouble. My brother in law has been struggling to get insulin. Waiting for social security to approve his retirement so he will get what he needs. He also has Hep C over 30 yrs. he couldn't afford biopsy and MRI etc. He tried interferon / riba ( inspired after my first treatment failure ) his was given it by an MD who never treated anyone like this before. He only did t weeks, he couldn't take it and quit. And Dr said It could have killed him.
Because I just wanted to vent my emotions. I couldn't put together what you said so well. Insurance companies decisions being made for us based on money. Why does something so good have to have be given by Greedy group of billionaires with evil roots. All I ( We ) can do is pray that the cure will come to everyone.
And it is a great day to see the cure is just over the hill.
Again and again I'm so grateful to this forum. And all of you in it.
Bill S
mallani said
Nov 10, 2013
Hi guys,
Jim, of course I didn't let him win. I had 36 points and he had 34! (Single Stableford). I don't even let my 9 yo grandson win at chess, but his father does.
The prices I mentioned are just informed guesses. The big problem will arise if the Insurance Co's ( or the VA) start influencing Rx choice or duration. ' Why do you need 24 weeks of drug X for an SVR rate of 90%+ when only 12 weeks will give an SVR rate of 80%? ', or, 'We won't approve Drug X + Drug Y when Drug X gives almost as good SVR rates'. The prices don't include blood tests, Doctor's visits, work-up, additional drugs like Riba etc. The all-inclusive price for my 48 weeks of Rx was about $100,000, so there's nothing new.
Yeah, it's exciting to see the new beginning of the end of HepC- for some people.
Bills said
Nov 10, 2013
Sick Angry disbelief outraged and a million other things all at once. How dose this happen? I'm sick to my stomach for the people that won't get treated because of money.I would think that at that Price $$$ per patient don't they have to disclose what it cost to get this far? Even if it is almost justifiable This country is #(@&ked up. I wonder how long will it take to breakeven for their efforts. I can't imagine it will be long at that rate. They got the lab rats for free. How many of us wasted a year or 2 years taking poison? and wonder if we will have worse problems years later. 60-80 120 K$$$$ does that cover blood tests and doctor visits? If copying the drug went underground and bootleg pills were affordable I would take them. Now If anyone gets caught we / They go to jail for trying to stay alive? Hep Free behind bars Yea.
What a deal for Gilead. I'm stunned. I feel guilty cause I have good insurance. Do any of the decision makers feel any guilt? That's a Crime. I have cirrhosis and they will celebrate with $500.00 brandy and champagne. How can this world let this happen? Did this happen with Cancer and research and cures for it. Maybe It didn't hit home with me because I've been fortunate enough to not have it or ever think of following it. That also makes me feel like bad person for not knowing. ( I'm sorry to all cancer survivors and family who had to deal with it.) the government bails out all the financial companies and banks auto manufactures supports the mass-production of the unhealthy produce and livestock. I'm not totally informed enough to debate this stuff and really don't know all about it but.
Watch you back Gilead there may be people who won't wait for Karma We need a super hero like robin hood. How bout some lawyers? ( scratch that their just as bad) Sorry for the rant and I really gave a lot of thought to keep my language clean as I could.
What a shock I don't like it but I'm glad I heard this.
Thank You Malcolm your always there to help us all out
Bill S
Tig said
Nov 9, 2013
Hey Zlik, I totally share your anger and disgust! Karma will deliver the reward they so justly deserve, but at what cost while so many wait for that to happen? We'll have to keep the moral and ethical pressure on them until intelligence and compassion overrule greed and selfishness.
Zlikster said
Nov 9, 2013
ugh...so 24w (180 pills) of Sofosbuvir will cost 120-180k $? 100$ per pill? for f*** sake...Buying Pharmasset for 11bil $ was maybe biggest lust for money from Gilead (well maybe with Tamiflu was another). I hope India or China soon make a cheap GS7977 knockoff. Still can't comprehend that Pharmasset owner pocketed 400mil $ from that Gilead's transaction and kicked out PSI-7977 inventor on the street. This world is indeed f***ed up place.
Of course cost will prevent mix n match of DAAs. Except for the rich folks, who can afford 80k $ for Sofosbuvir and another 80k $ or so for NS5A inhibitor from BMS like Daclatasvir when it gets approved (soon?). In meantime Gilead is already experimenting with Sofosbuvir + GS5186 (new NS5A inhibitor, apparently better than Ledispavir). What are BMS, AbbVie, Merck doing? Sitting on their hands and letting Gilead take all the glory /money? :/
My poor hepa can't even get Boceprevir or Telaprevir for her sickest gt1 patients over here, presumably cause of high cost. Must be terrible feeling watching your patients getting ready for liver transplatation, when there is effective cure just not for the "poor".
sorry about the language and rant. Just don't feel like in best mood with all this big pharma and big money talk :( Makes me sick. When i get to F4 with my liver i will indeed really go somewhere in USA or EU and rob first Gilead's lab and then even if i fail i would at least make headlines in media about convicting people who can't afford overpriced meds cause of this really wrong profit based system in pharmacology.
Tig said
Nov 9, 2013
Knowing how passionate you are about the eradication of this virus, I can only imagine this may have been one time your mind was more on the conversation than the game! I have to think you really enjoyed the opportunity to pick his brain, not so much having to be cautious of the score!! Thanks for the explanation, it was very informative!
JIme said
Nov 9, 2013
I hope you let him win.
mallani said
Nov 9, 2013
Hi all,
Just had a round of golf with my doc. Boy, it's hard to get info out of him on a golf course.
His Geno 3 patients will be given Sofosbuvir/Riba for 24 weeks, as they are all previous relapsers, and are either F3-4 or F4.
There is a lot of speculation about the price Gilead will put on 12 weeks of Sofosbuvir. Most think between $ 60 and 80K. Double that for cirrhotics. When Victrelis first became available at $50K for 44 weeks, there was initial outrage when Vertex put a $50K price tag on the 12 weeks of Incivek. It didn't matter much, as Incivek outsold Victrelis by 3:1 in the first year. Although Gilead have to recoup the $11 billion they paid Pharmasset to acquire Sofosbuvir, it's share price has gone up ~80% this year. It's all about market expectations, and Gilead have done a superb job of selling nucleotide analogue inhibitors of the NS5B site as the best way to stop viral replication. The virus will be 'nuked' is the catchcry. Gilead have consistently ignored the NS3/4 site- 'too prone to mutations' is the message.
He thinks cost will prevent mixing and matching DAA's from different DrugCos. There is a rumour that April 2014 is when the FDA will consider the Sofosbuvir/ Ledispavir combo. This will be a single pill, and Gilead are expected to price it very competitively. He is astounded at the silence from Abbvie and BMS.
He has no idea whether Vertex and Merck will reduce the cost of Incivek and Victrelis, to make it more affordable for the poorer countries.
Poor guy. He enjoyed his day despite the inquisition. Cheers.
I don't disagree with you, but what choices do we have? :)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2012/08/09/how-much-money-did-jonas-salk-potentially-forfeit-by-not-patenting-the-polio-vaccine/
example of mr.Salk's decision not to patent his polio vaccine. He could have been by forbes estimate 7bil $ richer if he did indeed patented it. He did not. "Prize" you mentioned, used to be achievement, moral satisfaction, being a national hero. Not making zillions before other company does ;/
Gilead as a company (and not only Gilead) has a history if shady practices when it comes to selling their products and marketing em. Usually they aquire smaller pharma co. that has a potential new drug, then they develop it further and market it (overpriced or pushing it as essential) or license it. Do not forger Tamiflu case. Donald Rumsfeld (joined Gilead as a director in 1988 Chairman 19972001) was in Gilead when Tamiflu was licensed to Roche (would be too obvious if Gilead sold it to gov). There was a huge stockpiling in USA of Tamiflu (billions $). Guess who was in administration at that time? Not to mention questionable effectivnes of Tamiflu.
Did Gilead had to pay 11bil $ for Pharmasset?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/22/us-pharmasset-founder-idUSTRE7AL2ES20111122
check the comment, sounds like it's Mr.Clark or some other Pharmasset staff that Schinazi striped of everything...
I do not dismiss hard work of research teams in private pharma companies, i just hate the profit game they are pushed into by the rotten system we have let em get into. I have all the possible respect for people in "white coats" and on other hand i have real anger towards people in "biz suits" managing em. I feel sorry that we now have the meds competition game as our only chance for getting price down (oh well, and chinese/india knocoffs i guess).
good luck to your neice :) hope some big co doesn't spoils her good intentions!
enough of me hijacking Malcolm's golf thread with social rants ;)
peace
I feel bad for inventor/chemist of Sofosbuvir and all other hard working people in labs getting ripped from their greedy employers. I feel bad for hepatologists/doctors who can't treat their patinets (or even worse, watch em slowly die) cause of the money game involved.
SoC Interferon+Riba,3-4 years ago, was not covered by national health insurance over here. I know 2 cases where people had to get into huge bank loans just so they can afford to be treated (one cirrothic lady, mom of my friend). I have inside information, that my tx costed em (insurance) round 15k $ only, since they were getting Riba for free/subsidised from Roche. I was paying for each blood test, 3 PCRs, all Neupogen shots, FibroSure, etc during and pre tx, round 3k$, so it was not that bad for me financially. Roche is lately getting pretty agressive with advertising in Bosnia, so i presume SoC Peg+Riba will be even cheaper for insurance to cover it over here. I am only F1/A1 so i do not complain much, but if i were with late liver stage and getting to the point of liver transplatation, i would have to get a bank loan (which i can't get since i am selfemployed) or i would beg (like desperate people do) via media for some money/charity...or rob some lab ;)
@Malcolm, i would let my hepa win anytime in any game! :)
@Bill, since insurance/pharmacology is in this dirty money marekt biz, only hope is competition will do it's thing. I think in next 10 years, Merck, Abbvie, Gilead, BMS, etc will all have it's own DAA combo that will be 100% effective and that it will bring price down. And i bet in next 15years we will have a vaccine too. HCV will be just a distant memory :) It's just sad that there are no more people like there were in the past (eg. Dr.Jonas Salk), who did not patent vaccines/meds and only worked with genuine human impulse to help others and erradicate viral diseases.
sorry about my rant over here, should vented myslef in the Rants thread :)
It is the stock holders that want their pennies worth mainly. Nothing is for nothing.
My neice starts university studying bio chemistry this year. It is with every good intention that people go into the indusrty. It is true that millions are needed for future research and to drive sales to hospitals, competition is stiff with so many after the same prize.
Prices will be reduced when competiton arrives enmass, so be assured soon Pegasus and ribaviren will be cheap. The same will happen faster with the DDAs because so many companies are coming out with new meds at the same time.
Without these companies we would all have a terrible fate eventually, so you have to love them because without them we would have no hope.
Just a thought.... ;)
-- Edited by Loopy Lisa on Monday 11th of November 2013 04:30:12 PM
-- Edited by Loopy Lisa on Monday 11th of November 2013 11:45:04 PM
-- Edited by Loopy Lisa on Monday 11th of November 2013 11:45:30 PM
With all due respect Bill, the insurance companies are interested in one thing and one thing only. Money. My insurance company refused to pay for Incivek because they said it was too expensive. I'm serious. That's what they told me. And after going through Hurricane Sandy here in NJ and seeing how the insurance industry is treating people who had insurance, including my own mother, I know that they are almost as low as lawyers when it comes to the dregs of humanity. They only care about one thing. I do feel bad for most people who will probably not be eligible for these amazing new tx. You would probably be better off having nothing and getting the drugs for free than trying to go through your insurance. Sad but true.
LOL
Malcolm
I like the competitive attitude they'll just have to get over it.
I do need to to just clean up what I said here in anger. For me it doesn't appear to be a problem with insurance. and I should or will have to pay the difference. any of us would. My anger is directed at the the drug companies on behalf of people who may not get " The cure " SVR because of Money. I know too many people who will have trouble. My brother in law has been struggling to get insulin. Waiting for social security to approve his retirement so he will get what he needs. He also has Hep C over 30 yrs. he couldn't afford biopsy and MRI etc. He tried interferon / riba ( inspired after my first treatment failure ) his was given it by an MD who never treated anyone like this before. He only did t weeks, he couldn't take it and quit. And Dr said It could have killed him.
Because I just wanted to vent my emotions. I couldn't put together what you said so well. Insurance companies decisions being made for us based on money. Why does something so good have to have be given by Greedy group of billionaires with evil roots. All I ( We ) can do is pray that the cure will come to everyone.
And it is a great day to see the cure is just over the hill.
Again and again I'm so grateful to this forum. And all of you in it.
Bill S
Hi guys,
Jim, of course I didn't let him win. I had 36 points and he had 34! (Single Stableford). I don't even let my 9 yo grandson win at chess, but his father does.
The prices I mentioned are just informed guesses. The big problem will arise if the Insurance Co's ( or the VA) start influencing Rx choice or duration. ' Why do you need 24 weeks of drug X for an SVR rate of 90%+ when only 12 weeks will give an SVR rate of 80%? ', or, 'We won't approve Drug X + Drug Y when Drug X gives almost as good SVR rates'. The prices don't include blood tests, Doctor's visits, work-up, additional drugs like Riba etc. The all-inclusive price for my 48 weeks of Rx was about $100,000, so there's nothing new.
Yeah, it's exciting to see the new beginning of the end of HepC- for some people.
Sick Angry disbelief outraged and a million other things all at once. How dose this happen? I'm sick to my stomach for the people that won't get treated because of money.I would think that at that Price $$$ per patient don't they have to disclose what it cost to get this far? Even if it is almost justifiable This country is #(@&ked up. I wonder how long will it take to breakeven for their efforts. I can't imagine it will be long at that rate. They got the lab rats for free. How many of us wasted a year or 2 years taking poison? and wonder if we will have worse problems years later. 60-80 120 K$$$$ does that cover blood tests and doctor visits? If copying the drug went underground and bootleg pills were affordable I would take them. Now If anyone gets caught we / They go to jail for trying to stay alive? Hep Free behind bars Yea.
What a deal for Gilead. I'm stunned. I feel guilty cause I have good insurance. Do any of the decision makers feel any guilt? That's a Crime. I have cirrhosis and they will celebrate with $500.00 brandy and champagne. How can this world let this happen? Did this happen with Cancer and research and cures for it. Maybe It didn't hit home with me because I've been fortunate enough to not have it or ever think of following it. That also makes me feel like bad person for not knowing. ( I'm sorry to all cancer survivors and family who had to deal with it.) the government bails out all the financial companies and banks auto manufactures supports the mass-production of the unhealthy produce and livestock. I'm not totally informed enough to debate this stuff and really don't know all about it but.
Watch you back Gilead there may be people who won't wait for Karma We need a super hero like robin hood. How bout some lawyers? ( scratch that their just as bad) Sorry for the rant and I really gave a lot of thought to keep my language clean as I could.
What a shock I don't like it but I'm glad I heard this.
Thank You Malcolm your always there to help us all out
Bill S
Hey Zlik, I totally share your anger and disgust! Karma will deliver the reward they so justly deserve, but at what cost while so many wait for that to happen? We'll have to keep the moral and ethical pressure on them until intelligence and compassion overrule greed and selfishness.
ugh...so 24w (180 pills) of Sofosbuvir will cost 120-180k $? 100$ per pill? for f*** sake...Buying Pharmasset for 11bil $ was maybe biggest lust for money from Gilead (well maybe with Tamiflu was another). I hope India or China soon make a cheap GS7977 knockoff. Still can't comprehend that Pharmasset owner pocketed 400mil $ from that Gilead's transaction and kicked out PSI-7977 inventor on the street. This world is indeed f***ed up place.
Of course cost will prevent mix n match of DAAs. Except for the rich folks, who can afford 80k $ for Sofosbuvir and another 80k $ or so for NS5A inhibitor from BMS like Daclatasvir when it gets approved (soon?).
In meantime Gilead is already experimenting with Sofosbuvir + GS5186 (new NS5A inhibitor, apparently better than Ledispavir). What are BMS, AbbVie, Merck doing? Sitting on their hands and letting Gilead take all the glory /money? :/
My poor hepa can't even get Boceprevir or Telaprevir for her sickest gt1 patients over here, presumably cause of high cost. Must be terrible feeling watching your patients getting ready for liver transplatation, when there is effective cure just not for the "poor".
sorry about the language and rant. Just don't feel like in best mood with all this big pharma and big money talk :( Makes me sick. When i get to F4 with my liver i will indeed really go somewhere in USA or EU and rob first Gilead's lab and then even if i fail i would at least make headlines in media about convicting people who can't afford overpriced meds cause of this really wrong profit based system in pharmacology.
Knowing how passionate you are about the eradication of this virus, I can only imagine this may have been one time your mind was more on the conversation than the game! I have to think you really enjoyed the opportunity to pick his brain, not so much having to be cautious of the score!! Thanks for the explanation, it was very informative!
Hi all,
Just had a round of golf with my doc. Boy, it's hard to get info out of him on a golf course.
His Geno 3 patients will be given Sofosbuvir/Riba for 24 weeks, as they are all previous relapsers, and are either F3-4 or F4.
There is a lot of speculation about the price Gilead will put on 12 weeks of Sofosbuvir. Most think between $ 60 and 80K. Double that for cirrhotics. When Victrelis first became available at $50K for 44 weeks, there was initial outrage when Vertex put a $50K price tag on the 12 weeks of Incivek. It didn't matter much, as Incivek outsold Victrelis by 3:1 in the first year. Although Gilead have to recoup the $11 billion they paid Pharmasset to acquire Sofosbuvir, it's share price has gone up ~80% this year. It's all about market expectations, and Gilead have done a superb job of selling nucleotide analogue inhibitors of the NS5B site as the best way to stop viral replication. The virus will be 'nuked' is the catchcry. Gilead have consistently ignored the NS3/4 site- 'too prone to mutations' is the message.
He thinks cost will prevent mixing and matching DAA's from different DrugCos. There is a rumour that April 2014 is when the FDA will consider the Sofosbuvir/ Ledispavir combo. This will be a single pill, and Gilead are expected to price it very competitively. He is astounded at the silence from Abbvie and BMS.
He has no idea whether Vertex and Merck will reduce the cost of Incivek and Victrelis, to make it more affordable for the poorer countries.
Poor guy. He enjoyed his day despite the inquisition. Cheers.