Hep C Discussion Forum

mallani · Guru

Herbs and Dietary supplements may cause liver toxicity

Jaded · Senior Member

mallani wrote:
Hi all,
At the latest Liver Meeting, a paper was presented warning of the dangers of some Herbal products, dietary supplements and food additives. The number of liver toxicity cases from these has more than doubled over the last 8 years. As such products are classed as foods, not drugs, there is no regulation of the amount or content of these. The importance of telling your doctor about all such herbal and over-the-counter additives was emphasised. Patients are also encouraged to tell their doctors about any on-line drugs they may be taking, as these often don't contain the stated doses of drugs, and have not been FDA approved.
The biggest on-line seller was Viagra 100mg. Testing of drugs supplied showed that, in one batch, there was less than 10 mg of Sildenafil! Cheers.

Re: Viagra...I'm a little confused here...was it that the batch (less than 10 mg of Sildenafil) was counterfeit product containing toxic ingredients or is genuine Viagra consider toxic to the liver?

Brian1412 · Guru

Does anyone know anything about those gnc weight gain powders and harvoni? I will ask my dr,but i am Again. Battling. To get my weight up. I have a very high metabolism. And circumstances. Dictate from jalot of physical activity.. i have lean body But may have to dtart buying pants at baby Gap. Unless. Tig will send me 30lbs. I cannot. Get a balance going

Luckydog1953 · Member

I also think that the MSDS sheet does not definitely claim toxicity from mag stearate, it warns against accidental ingestion. Magnesium Stearate is recognized as Generally Regarded As Safe (GRAS) by the FDA. There has been an in-vitro study that showed T-cell inhibition by mag stearate in vitro, but toxicity studies have not established a threat in vivo in the small amounts that are ingested in supplements. Many things work differently in the body than in the lab. Many safe substances kill cells in a petri dish but are perfectly safe in the diet.

Until there is science establishing toxicity of mag stearate I would reserve judgement. An in-vitro study on T-cells doesn't prove much and if the standard of proof is science, then someone should demonstrate it.

Luckydog1953 · Member

WebMD has a list of herbs, side effects and contraindications for herbs and vitamins and minerals. Education is always good.

In my experience it is the hepatotoxic pharmaceuticals to watch out for. I have known hep c patients who achieved SVR only to die of ESLD afterward due to pain meds for chronic pain. I know a Veteran who has been on methotrexate for 20 years for RA and is now in ESLD thanks to his meds - science has shown that methotrexate completely ties up the cytochromeP450 system (hepatotoxic). Since pharmaceutical drugs are synthetic, I would fear their hepatotoxicity much more than metabolites your body manufactures and utilizes in its everyday metabolism.

I am not afraid to take supplements that my body makes and needs and which get depleted due to my illness. Also presented at AASLD are metabolic studies that show that all hepatobiliary disease cause similar changes to the phenotype of the host, which change their nutritional requirements. The only way to get those essential nutrients are through dietary supplements.

Just my opinion, but if you are afraid to take a vitamin that your body produces how could you ever take a synthetic drug that no animal system has ever been exposed to in the history of the world?

Sadly, this is the reverse logic of the medical system. Legally only FDA-approved drugs may claim to have a therapeutic effect on a disease state. Since only proprietary (synthetic) drugs may commercially benefit from super-expensive clinical trials, natural un-proprietary substances do not undergo the FDA drug approval process. The upshot of this is that of all the metabolites the body makes and uses, of all the essential vitamins, minerals, and amino acids that are required by diet, of all the botanical polyphenols that humans evolved with over 100 million years, none can have an therapeutic effect on a disease state. It is only synthetic biochemicals that no animal system has ever experienced in history that may have a therapeutic effect on a disease state.

This is the system that we live in. But if I may propose - the FDA drug approval process is not Science. It is not the all-encompassing truth. It is a mechanism to promote pharmaceutical medicine, but also to suppress natural medicine. Ten years ago it was common wisdom that conventional medicine would Integrate with Natural Medicine. That hasn't happened but it should have.

Sherryl · Member

Magnesium stearate is particularly dangerous to the Liver; see the M.S.D.S (Material Safety Data Sheet - from Science Labs):

Section 3:Potential Acute Health Effects: Hazardous in case of ingestion

Section 11: Chronic Effects on Humans: May cause damage to the following organs: liver, skin

Section 15: California prop. 65: This product contains the following ingredients for which the State of California has found to cause cancer,

birth defects or other reproductive harm, which would require a warning under the statute: Magnesium stearate California prop.65:

This product contains the following ingredients for which the State of California has found to cause cancer which would require

a warning under the statute: Magnesium stearate

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927217

It is in most capsules as an additional ingredient, and is probably in all tablets.

I also agree with Tig56 that there are some genuine benefits

, BUT it is difficult

(but NOT impossible

) to find supplements without magnesium stearate.

-- Edited by Sherryl on Thursday 6th of February 2014 10:05:43 AM

news · Guru

It is my opinion that the healthy life style was more important than the cabinet full of supplements, even if they were all good. The healthy lifestyle has physical and mental elements that combine to work better than anything else.

Just my $0.02

Alan

Loopy Lisa · Guru

I wonder how many additives there are in vitamins now. It is not stated on our vitamins, I can't say I even thought about it. They do state E numbers on food, but most of us don't know what they are to be fair. I think we place a lot of trust into what we are sold as ok.

Kellie · Senior Member

Some additives in caps are called flowing agents. They are mixed with the product to make the encapsulating process run smoothly. Magnesium stearate is one of them.

Then there are additives to tablets to keep them together during the molding process. Some additives are preservatives. Some are for color.

I agree some folks take too many supplements, as I did when I was in the vitamin industry. I had cupboards full of sample bottles given freely by the sales reps.

I believe that some of the supps I took kept me healthier, but I wonder if my healthy lifestyle contributed just as much, if not more so, to my good health.

It's a good subject.

-- Edited by Kellie on Sunday 17th of November 2013 09:43:20 PM

-- Edited by Kellie on Sunday 17th of November 2013 09:43:52 PM

Matt Chris · Guru

Hey all

I think I understand the problem that Malcolm is seeing in the abstract. It's the open free market and lack of quality control and no safeguards on ingredients. Also the un substantiated claims of hundreds of untested products that make the landscape of supplements a dicy proposition. Its buyer beware but I think one can find safe and high quality vitamins and herbs but knowing the where, when and how to use is another story. I think reading and studying on the proper use of supplements really needs to be done. I personally learned the hard way, thinking that supplements could help with clearing my hep-c (wrong) I now choose my supplements wisely and sparingly.

I now am a covert of the entourage effect , which basically says isolating individual vitamins and supplements to pill form have limited effectiveness in their isolated state.

The term entourage effect puts value in finding and eating the food that contains a high quality amount of the nutrient or vitamin in its natural form with all it's other phytonutrients that your body recognized, in other words whole foods (superfoods) with all it's complete nutritionally rich attributes. This also requires understanding foods and there origin because these also have been contaminated.

Best advice get your nutrition via real foods not through supplements.

matt

mallani · Guru

Loopy: I have only read the abstract. The full article may, or may not find it's way into a Journal. No specific products are mentioned. I think the point is that many patients do not reveal vitamins, supplements and herbs to their doctors, as they do not regard them as 'drugs'. By US law, all contents should be listed on labels, but this is not regulated, so is often not done.

Zlikster and Tig: I am not rubbishing vitamins and herbs. If people think they need them, that's their choice. When we go to India, I normally take enough drugs to cover most problems. However, I have walked into an Indian pharmacy and bought a course of antibiotics. There is always a doubt about what you're buying. The proliferation of on-line pharmacies where you can buy anything without a prescription, is causing concern.

I do think that, if China and India produce their own DAA's, there will be fairly strict Government supervision.

Zlikster · Guru

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/blog/biotech/2013/08/gilead-viread-china-hiv-aids-hepatitis-b.html

Price of Viread (30x300mg) in USA - 600-900$
Price of Viread (30x300mg) in China - 240$ but even that was too expensive for Chinese, so they revoked patent.

I wonder will Gilead be brave enough to market Sofosbuvir in China ;) If the starting price will be 3 times lower than in USA, that will still be too expensive for Chinese, so i can't wait for affordable DAAs from China. To be honest, i doubt Gilead will market Sofosbuvir that soon in China. Maybe in few years time, but it's a tempting market (20mil hep c infected?).

I am not afraid that they will miss dosage, i am more afraid there will be cheap fake DAAs on the chinese market, beside real stuff.

Tig · Admin

I agree that there are several herbal claims that are either entirely bogus or blown out of proportion, but there are some genuine benefits from a lot of those products. Chinese and Japanese herbal treatments have been helping people for centuries, many of those years they were the modern medicine. So I wouldn't put all of your belief in placebo-fx. One thing I wonder about since this was brought up, are your thoughts on what the potential fraud there might (will) be with the medication strengths of the drugs developed by patent infringing companies? We've discussed the potential savings of the new HCV meds if made in China or India off patent. I'm afraid that the same likelihood of low or high dose errors will exist.

Zlikster · Guru

i just got some supplements which i know do not work, but i need some placebo fx to help me ease my mind a bit :)

MSM and Sylmarin extract (yeah i know it's bogus). I don't take anything else from any meds/supplements, except sometimes vit c and Echinecia when i get flu. I do drink my japanese green tea a bit more than usual (i am avid drinker of it), but thats it.

Going to see my hepa on Tue and i know she will make fun of me cause of these supplements, but i hope she will understand i need some placebofx at this stage ;)

best

Loopy Lisa · Guru

Hi Mallani,

Do you have any futher data on which particular products? I think we all take vitamins and cannot totally hide from additives.

Thanks :)

mallani · Guru

Hi all,

At the latest Liver Meeting, a paper was presented warning of the dangers of some Herbal products, dietary supplements and food additives. The number of liver toxicity cases from these has more than doubled over the last 8 years. As such products are classed as foods, not drugs, there is no regulation of the amount or content of these. The importance of telling your doctor about all such herbal and over-the-counter additives was emphasised. Patients are also encouraged to tell their doctors about any on-line drugs they may be taking, as these often don't contain the stated doses of drugs, and have not been FDA approved.

The biggest on-line seller was Viagra 100mg. Testing of drugs supplied showed that, in one batch, there was less than 10 mg of Sildenafil! Cheers.

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