Hep C Discussion Forum

gonzoid · Member

RE: Milk thistle etc.

Minerva · Guru

I used to take milkthistle pre-tx and after dx. Unfortunately, for me it seemed to make my IBS flare up. So i stopped. Fortunately, post-tx and with svr, i very rarely ever get problems with IBS now.

Love and hugs
Heather
xxx

LaurieBluesGuy · Guru

I took Milk thistle before treatment, and post-treatment.

Stooped taking it one week before starting tx so it wouldn't mask any blood tests. My bloods were taken every week cos they were so low. Didn't take any all the way thru tx either.

When my chemo finished I was in a pretty weakened state so I didn't take anything - it took me a 10 - 12 week recovery period before I felt well enough to do anything. Then started milk thistle, multi vitamins, etc ...

Lau

The Dude · Senior Member

I'd be real interested in reading a condensed [lol] version lori. Like you I believe we can play a huge role in helping our Liver help itself. To me it's a matter of being aware of ones own body & Chi Qong does dat. Especially when you can feel the electicity flowing thru yor hands making ones body hair stand on end as you pass yor hands around ones energy lines. Feeling the heat generated by ones hands holding dem a half inch away from each other. The stances help with balance & breathing SO IMPORTANT not many people breath properly only using a third of their lung capacity. I'm fifty dis year have smoked since I wuz 15 yet I can hold my breath no problem with Yoga exercises & chant longer.
I see how shallow people breath when their chanting. An dey wonder why my chanting reaches places others don't; as in finding harmony. When you find dat perfect pitch an watch the person look round cos dey kno it's magic. Luv it when someone does it to me, never fails to surpise Wow!
No suprise dat I yearn to become a Buddhist Monk teaching loving kindness.
One of the hardest tings to do is give oneself loving kindness cos it takes an aceptence dat we ain't the centre of the world an our ego can be our worst enemy. I got self sabotage down to an absolute art. So much ability, we all have dis ability it's a question of wanting it.....Possibly....Hmm did I go of topic?
Bogey; wake up! Tinking bout Marlene were we den Bogey? No Bogey says he wuz sailing....Velly nice...Away w'yer The Dude

Bemused · Senior Member

Lorijryan
I agree, I think milk thistle is fine when not on combi-therapy. I understand that it can mask the effects of treatment so best to be avoided, but off treatment, no problem. I drank a lot of green tea with ginseng on treatment and I don't know if that helped or not but I have been drinking it for years and I didn't stop on treatment. Milk thistle and the liver has been an 'old wives' tale' for years and there is often some medical evidence behind these!

lorijryan · Newbie

Hi all. I believe milk thistle is very effective at helping your liver protect itself. After discussing this with my doctors, I have come to understand why milk thistle, in particular is forbidden during INF treatment. (I am not on INF treatment--was just inquiring). Milk thistle does such a good job of protecting your liver by blocking the effects of toxic substances, and regretably, INF IS a toxic substance (it has to be to do it's job). The fear is that milk thistle will thus block some of the therapuetic effects of treatment, and not let the INF do it's purported job. Makes much sense, really. It has nothing to do with artificial results--the blood test results are real--your liver actually IS feeling better--but the INF is not being allowed to do it's job of attacking the virus, which is counter-productive for those doing INF treatment. But, in my opinion, milk thistle is a great addition, in combination with a healthy lifestyle, and perhaps a few other suppliments as well, for anyone with hepc who is either unwilling or unable to do INF treatment. I am a surviver of 2 liver transplants due to hepc, so I do a lot of research regarding these things, and am hoping I have found a forum open-minded enough here, to discuss these matters without ridicule or retribution. I just want us all to live and be as healthy and happy as we can be; whatever our choices as far as how best to combat this disease are. BTW--glad to meet you all, and for those who don't already know me, maybe I should make a short biography-type post, in the "new" section. The problem is, the story is NOT short (LOL), so I thought I would test the waters here first, as far as open-mindedness goes. Love, Lori

-- Edited by lorijryan at 16:20, 2007-12-12

Robert · Veteran Member

It is encouraging to know that the clinical trials for efficacy and safety of Milk Thistle are taking place. Hopefully, they will prove that Milk Thistle is an effective supplement in minimizing the effects of the virus for those who are conventional-treatment intolerant, have relapsed, or have chosen not to undergo the current interferon/ribavirin treatment regimen.

It will also hopefully result in standardization of concentrations and dosages:

http://nccam.nih.gov/news/newsletter/2007_winter/spotlight.htm

Spotlight on Clinical Trials

The clinical trials below are among the many NCCAM-sponsored trials recruiting, or planning to start recruitment soon, at press time. To see others, go to nccam.nih.gov/clinicaltrials/alltrials.htm.

Milk thistle.
© Alternative Nature Herbals

Phase I/II Trials of Silymarin for Chronic Liver Diseases
This study will investigate different dosages of silymarin (the active ingredient in milk thistle) as a therapy for the following chronic liver diseases:

In Phase I (the phase for which recruitment is taking place), chronic hepatitis C and nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD)
In Phase II, chronic hepatitis C and nonalcoholic steatohepatitis.

Silymarin has a history as CAM to treat various disorders, including those in the liver. This rigorous study will test whether it is effective and safe for the above diseases. The study is cosponsored with the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases.

Principal investigators' institutions: University of Pennsylvania, Thomas Jefferson University, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, University of Pittsburgh (data center)

More information: Go to www.clinicaltrials.gov and enter "NCT00389376" in the search box.

greenqueen · Guru

Hi Nadine & Nikki,

Should be interesting to see the results

Steff xx

ps Better go & post my input soon!

nikki · Senior Member

I'm going to start another thread on this as well. I've opened one to see about the link with weight issues and tx/side effects, so let's see if there's a link to diet and lifestyle versus SVR.

Nikki xx

greenqueen · Guru

Hi Nadine,

Most of the time my diet is pretty good - was a strict veggie from the age of 13, have included fish in my diet for the last few years, though. Not a lover of crisps, cakes etc, but like chocolate now and again

However, on tx I was completely trashed both mentally and physically. I did it alone, was unable to cook for myself most of the time and survived on protein drinks from the hospital for the majority of tx. Didn't drink alcohol, am a light smoker, I cleared.

Steff xx

CeeGee2 · Guru

Hi Nadine, watch my diet very seriously due to my cihrrosis, don't drink alcohol at all. Last treatment took Milk thistle thru it, was a rapid responder. But I relapsed, maybe it was masking results, but can't see how it can alter the viral count numbers. This time have stayed off it and all supplements , use a diet designed specifically designed for me by a dietician, (Nutrisonist.not for weight loss) and have it reviewed and altered according to my needs. Will return to milk thistle after this tx as I do believe it helps my liver. but have started smoking again last christmas (bad boy). I am only allowed to sing these days . CG

nikki · Senior Member

I think personally, that if you're not on treatment and what you're taking is helping your liver, then why not? I see why you should avoid them so as not to get a false test result for treatment etc, but not when you're just trying to stay as healthy as you can.

Nikki xx

Bemused · Senior Member

Looks like my Green tea with Ginseng is OK then.
I wonder if any treatment crashers or non-responders are considering some of these herbs. I'm sure some say they can effect results on treatment by masking what's actually going on. However, if not on treatment, can they really do any harm?

nikki · Senior Member

Have you looked at the useful research thread below?

I find it really interesting that the scientists are starting to look at natural aids to help with the virus. Not as a cure I know, but to help manage the sides and symptoms. It makes perfect sense to me. We are from nature, plants and herbs are from nature. Ergo: nature helps nature.

Nikki xx

CeeGee2 · Guru

CAM Treatments for Hepatitis C

Citation	Description	Findings
Liu et al., 2003³	Systematic review	The researchers conducted searches in several databases to identify 13 randomized trials of medicinal herbs for hepatitis C (trial quality was rated adequate in only 4 trials). The selected trials, involving a total of 818 patients with mainly HCV, evaluated 14 different medicinal herbs versus various control interventions such as placebo. Compared to placebo, they found that none of the herbs tested showed effects on liver enzymes or in reducing the amount of HCV, except for milk thistle, which did show a significant reduction of liver enzymes in one trial. The authors concluded, "There is no firm evidence supporting medicinal herbs for HCV infection, and further randomized trials are justified."
Milk Thistle (Silymarin)
Letteron et al., 1990¹¹	Animal study	Researchers tested the liver-protective effects of silymarin against the damaging effects of carbon tetrachloride by administering 800 mg/kg of silymarin to mice before administering carbon tetrachloride. The researchers concluded that giving silymarin to mice prior to exposure to carbon tetrachloride prevented in part both lipid peroxidation (damage to the membrane) and liver cell death.
Davila et al., 1989¹²	Animal study	Using cultures of liver cells from newborn rats, researchers studied the protective effects of an active component of silymarin. Pretreatment of the liver cells with silybin before exposure to liver cell toxins led to less damage and reduction of leakage of liver enzymes. The researchers concluded that the silymarin component "may act by stabilizing the plasma membrane against toxic insult."
Fuchs et al., 1997¹³	Animal study	Using a specific type of liver cell (hepatic stellate cells) whose proliferation and transformation are associated with progression to fibrosis in liver disease, researchers studied the effects of an active component of silymarin. The component reduced the proliferation of rat hepatic stellate cells by about 75% and reduced the transformation of the cells to myofibroblasts.
Boigk et al., 1997¹⁴	Animal study	Using an animal model of liver fibrosis, researchers studied the effects of silymarin on collagen accumulation, which occurs during the progression of liver fibrosis. After the 6-week experiment, the researchers found that rats with induced liver fibrosis who were given silymarin had from 30% to 35% reduction in the amount of collagen accumulated. This suggests that silymarin may have antifibrotic activity.
Ferenci et al., 1989¹⁵	Randomized, controlled trial	Eighty-seven patients with cirrhosis of the liver from various causes, including alcohol abuse, were given 140 mg of silymarin 3 times a day for 2 years, and 83 patients received placebo. A total of 146 patients completed the 2-year study. The researchers noted that the 4-year survival rate of patients in the treatment group was approximately 58% and the 4-year survival rate in the placebo group was approximately 39%. The beneficial effects of silymarin were especially seen in patients with cirrhosis as a result of alcohol. According to the researchers, results suggest "mortality of patients with cirrhosis was reduced by treatment with silymarin."
Pares et al., 1998¹⁶	Randomized, double-blind, controlled trial	Researchers studied 200 patients with cirrhosis of the liver caused by alcohol. In the 2-year trial, 103 patients received 150 mg of silymarin 3 times a day, and 97 patients received a placebo. A total of 125 patients finished the trial. The researchers measured time to death and worsening of the disease to test effectiveness of silymarin. They found that survival of patients was similar in the treatment and placebo groups, and silymarin did not seem to improve the course of the disease in the treatment group.
Buzzelli et al., 1993¹⁷	Randomized, controlled, pilot study	This small trial of hepatitis patients suggests that a component of silymarin may be beneficial in managing chronic hepatitis. Ten patients with chronic hepatitis were assigned to receive 240 mg of the silymarin component 2 times a day for 1 week, and 10 other patients received placebo. The results of tests that show how well the liver is functioning showed significant improvement in the treatment group.
Wellington and Jarvis, 2001¹⁸	Review	The authors reviewed the properties of silymarin and its uses in treating liver diseases and concluded that the "antioxidant properties of silymarin...have been demonstrated in vitro and in animal and human studies. However, studies evaluating relevant health outcomes associated with these properties are lacking." Furthermore, they stated "silymarin was largely ineffective in the treatment of patients with viral hepatitis."
Saller et al., 2001¹⁹	Meta-analysis	Thirty-six studies were analyzed. Regarding viral hepatitis, the authors concluded, "Several small trials involving silymarin...have been published. Most of them are methodologically outdated...." Furthermore, they stated, "In spite of some positive results in patients with acute viral hepatitis, no formally valid conclusion can be drawn regarding the value of silymarin in the treatment of these infections."
Jacobs et al., 2002²⁰	Systematic review, meta-analysis	Fourteen randomized, placebo-controlled trials in patients with chronic liver disease met inclusion criteria. Authors found "no reduction in mortality, in improvements in histology and liver biopsy, or in biochemical markers of liver function...." They found the data to be too limited to support recommending milk thistle for treatment of liver disease.
Licorice Root (Glycyrrhizin)
van Rossum et al., 1998²²	Review	In this review the authors found treatment with glycyrrhizin to be effective in easing liver disease in some people. Some trials reviewed indicated improvements in liver tissue that had been damaged by hepatitis. Others showed improvements in liver function. The authors concluded "glycyrrhizin is a potential drug in reducing long-term complications in chronic viral hepatitis C in patients who do not respond with viral clearance to interferon therapy."
Arase et al., 1997²³	Retrospective study	This retrospective study examined the long-term preventive effect of glycyrrhizin on the development of liver cancer (hepatocellular carcinoma). Of 453 patients with chronic hepatitis C identified, 84 had been treated with glycyrrhizin. A control group of 109 patients not treated long-term with either glycyrrhizin or interferon was identified. At 10 years out from diagnosis, the researchers found 7% of those treated with glycyrrhizin had developed liver cancer compared to 12% in the control group. At 15 years, the rates were 12% and 25%, respectively. They concluded that glycyrrhizin may help prevent the development of liver cancer.
Kumada, 2002²⁴	Non-randomized clinical trial	The author assessed clinical data from non-randomized chronic hepatitis C patients who received glycyrrhizin in the form of a Japanese pharmaceutical product called Stronger Neo-Minophagen C (SNMC). He concluded, "SNMC can suppress necro-inflammation in chronic hepatitis C. Long-term treatment with SNMC, therefore, would be able to prevent liver cirrhosis and the development of HCC [liver cancer]."
van Rossum et al., 1999²⁷	Double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled phase I/II trial	Fifty-seven chronic hepatitis C patients were randomized to receive 240, 160, or 80 mg of glycyrrhizin or placebo for 4 weeks with 4 weeks of followup. Glycyrrhizin lowered liver enzymes during treatment, but did not decrease the level of HCV. The authors concluded that glycyrrhizin was safe and that further investigation is needed.
Tsubota et al., 1999²⁸	Randomized, controlled clinical trial	One hundred sixty-seven patients completed this 24-week study. Eighty-four patients received glycyrrhizin alone, and 83 took glycyrrhizin plus ursodeoxycholic acid. Liver enzyme levels were significantly decreased by both treatments. However, levels of HCV did not change in either group.
van Rossum et al., 2001²⁹	Part I: randomized, double-blind, placebo controlled trial; Part II: open trial	Part I: Sixty-nine patients with chronic hepatitis C received glycyrrhizin as SNMC 3 times per week for 4 weeks with a 4-week followup. Part II: Fifteen of the original patient group then participated in an open trial where they received 200 mg of glycyrrhizin 6 times per week for 4 weeks. Researchers' overall conclusion is that glycyrrhizin induces significant decreases in liver enzyme (ALT) levels in patients with chronic hepatitis C. Administering glycyrrhizin 6 times per week appeared more effective than 3 times per week.
Ginseng
Nguyen et al., 2000³⁵	Animal study	This study showed that treating mice with either crude ginseng extract or total saponins (ginseng's active ingredients) before receiving the liver-damaging chemical carbon tetrachloride decreased carbon tetrachloride-induced increase of certain liver enzyme levels by 50% and 49%, respectively. According to the researchers, the data suggest that Panax vietnamensis could be used as a hepatoprotectant.
Tran et al., 2002³⁶	Animal study	A mouse model of liver failure, which is applicable to a broad range of liver diseases, was used to test the liver protective effect of Vietnamese ginseng. Mice were pretreated with a ginseng extract, Majonoside R2, at 12 hours and 1 hour before being given a liver cell death and failure inducing combination of D-galactosamine and lipopolysaccharide. The ginseng extract was seen to significantly inhibit liver cell death.
Thymus Extract
Raymond et al., 1998³⁸	Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial	Thirty-eight patients who had not responded or did not tolerate interferon received Complete Thymic Formula (CTF) for 3 or 6 months or placebo for 3 months. No differences were noted at 3 months between the placebo group and the treatment group. Nineteen patients who completed 6 months of treatment with CTF still had levels of HCV similar to those they had when treatment began. The researchers concluded that CTF did not benefit patients who had previously received interferon therapy.
Schisandra
Cyong et al., 2000⁴¹	Two clinical studies, not controlled or randomized Additional studies done in vitro and in animal models	In a short-term study 34 hepatitis C patients were treated with one of three Kampo medicines for 6 months (TJ-108, TJ-48, or TJ-8). Eight patients had a decrease in virus levels; 6 of these were treated with TJ-108. In a long-term study 37 patients were treated with Kampo medicines, mainly TJ-108, for 1 year. The researchers determined that after 1 year of Kampo medicine, 8 patients (about 21%) tested negative for the virus and symptoms were improved in all patients. The researchers then tested the ability of TJ-108 to inhibit virus infection in vitro by adding TJ-108 to MOLT-4 cells (human lymphoblastoma cells) followed by HCV. They found that TJ-108 inhibited virus infection in a dose-dependent manner. Researchers identified the active ingredient in TJ-108 as schisandra fruit. The researchers then identified gomisin A as the active ingredient in the fruit. They then tested it in a mouse model of induced acute hepatic failure and concluded it increased survival.

Fung and Bowen, 1996⁴²	Review	Authors review the history of silver products in conventional medicine and the marketing of oral colloidal silver protein supplements for the prevention and treatment of numerous diseases. Also address its chemistry, pharmacology, toxicology, and case reports of adverse events. Authors emphasize "the lack of established effectiveness and potential toxicity of these products."

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